You've actually come very close to addressing a paradox that I address frequently: what I call the "paradox of the grace only Christian".

Let me explain it this way. To the "grace only" Christian, our salvation is wholly dependent on God's grace in overlooking our shortcomings. The bumper sticker saying "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" comes from this point of view.

Now here's where it gets sticky. Almost without exception, "grace only" Christians are quick to point out other groups and explain why they aren't going to heaven. Isn't a God who's big enough to forgive OUR shortcomings big enough to forgive theirs as well?

Now, to your point about forgiveness: God is certainly able, I won't question that. But I WILL question the irony of an atheist who demanded all of his life that there is no God demanding that God save him regardless.

God does have infinite love and forgiveness.  Jesus died for the sins of everyone, not just a chosen few.  The only thing keeping anyone from the power of the Atonement is themselves.  If a person chooses not to accept the infinite forgiveness, they won't get it.  Why should God force forgiveness on people who don't want it?

Excellent point, Para.

I'm having deja vu with your article and the comments. No insult intended!

The only thing keeping anyone from the power of the Atonement is themselves. If a person chooses not to accept the infinite forgiveness, they won't get it. Why should God force forgiveness on people who don't want it?

What he said!  And very well I might add.

John 3:18:

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Basically, he sent his Son to die for you. If you reject that, he's going to be pissed. If you accept that, there will be no condemnation. The only thing I can point out for a group of people is that they didn't believe in the name of Jesus, therefore they're not going to heaven. Anything else about them has nothing to do with it, there's only one choice to get in or stay out.

His forgiveness is NOT INFINATE, you just cannot keep making the same sin over and over and over , ask for forgiveness and go about your business. You ask for forgiveness, then you do NOT keep sinning the same way over and over again. If you do there will be hell to pay..... literally!

I disagree. I don't think that God's love, forgiveness, etc. is qualitatively different than the love that you and I are able to show. I think that it is God's infinite patience that makes all the difference; if we had that patience, in addition to God's holistic perspective, we would be capable of that same forgiveness.

Sounds to me like Christians are limiting not God, but themselves.

Dan

I have a diff take than what is presented here.....but I'm sure you're already aware of this....LOL.

What do you do with scriptures that say it's impossible for us to turn to God? How do you reconcile that? Like Romans 3:11 which says...... "there is NONE that understands, there is NONE that seek after God."

From what I see in scripture and from my own life I'm not even good or wise enough to pick him myself. Sort of like well educated in theology Paul...even he wasn't smart enough or good enough because he needed a kick in the pants himself.

Jesus said....You did not choose me, I chose you. Eph 1 says God does the choosing, the son does the redeeming and the Holy Spirit does the sealing. I don't see "us" doing anything until after our eyes are opened.

God is all powerful...all loving.....all forgiving....but he's also Sovereign and a God of Justice. It's his call, not ours.

I would encourage you to consider more carefully how you represent scripture. This is a misquotation. Romans 3:11 is a quotation. Romans 3:10-11 says "As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.'"

"As it is written" refers to Psalms 14:2. "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men to see if there were any who understood, dealt wisely, and sought after God, inquiring for and of Him and requiring Him [of vital necessity]. They are all gone aside, they have all together become filthy; there is none that does good or right, no, not one." (Amplified)

I quoted the Amplified version because it gives a little more insight into the meaning of the text. Psalms, as you'll no doubt recall, is a book of songs. David in particular wrote very little about events--at least, in the concrete sense. He more often wrote about how he felt, and how he (and the Lord) dealt with those feelings. So in Romans 3:11, the bible does not say we are incapable of turning to God. It says that "no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin" (Romans 3:20, NIV).

I say all this because without free choice, God is little more than a puppeteer. I love being a child of God, but I resent being called a puppet. As Capt. Jack Sparrow would say: Savvy?

Dan

Actually when you read the whole passage v10-18 it is as you said goes back to the OT. A number of verses Paul quotes and paraphrases including....Ps 5:9, 10:7, 14:1-3; 36:1; 140:3 and Isaiah 59:7-8.

His indictment of the Jews has the authority of scripture behind it. As far as 14:1, the one you quoted...Paul cites this and v3 in Romans in support of the universal and perennial sinfulness of mankind. It wasn't just for the OT sinners.

I do agree with you as far as saying "no one will be declared righteous in his signt by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." I also like how you went to the end quoting v20...using the word "therefore" does indicate we need to go back to what was previously stated going all the way back to v9. Good job.

But I disagree when you say we are "capable" of turning to God ourselves. I think scripture is quite clear...we are not.



well I respectfully disagree. And I don't think you or I are puppets either. You're a freewill believer and I'm a God's Election believer...although I do say when asked that I believe in both freewill and Election. I just believe the freewill comes after salvation, not before. We are chosen and then exercise our freewill. That's why you have so many Christians out there at various "ages." Some stay babies for a long time and others serve and grow quickly. It's freewill.

It's like this: once born into a family (no choice-elected) you then have the right to love, honor or obey (freewill) your parents as you live your life. Some children in the same family are very good at this and some are not.

For further reading you may want to meditate on John 1:12-13 and Ephesians Chap 1 & 2. I was where you are now and this was just the tip of the iceburg for me.

Here's another take: Maybe God limits His Christians.

Just a thought.

The "Election" Christian concept displays a level of conceit and arrogance that is simply incredible.

I graciously avoided condescension when I responded to you. Please extend the same courtesy to me.

More to the point, KFC: your views present no argument to the cliche objection to God's Election. If God picks and chooses who becomes a Christian, He is choosing who goes to heaven, and conversely who goes to Hell. If God chooses who goes to Hell, then it is not because we have sinned, but simply because we weren't chosen. You are suggesting that God made BILLIONS with a destiny of eternal damnation. Reread that last sentence. Billions.

And besides, if that were the case, how would 2 Peter 3:9 make sense? "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (NIV)

What is the purpose of evangelism?

If individuals are chosen as "elect," why not whole groups or races? Couldn't this become a basis for discrimination? Should this discrimination be sanctioned by the church?

"[God] wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4, NIV)

Just some food for thought.

Dan

PARATED2K POSTS:

B-I-N-G-O! This is the way I see it as well.

Asking forgiveness is part of "The Lord's Prayer" that Our Lord Himself taught us to pray. St.Matt. 7:9-13. V. 12 is the one in discussion. "And forgive us our debts (trespasses), as we also forgive our debtors." So asking forgiveness of God, Most Merciful is a prayer, a petition, to God asking Him for forgiveness.

So many are the things which display God's infinite power, and wisdom and goodness that whenever we turn our eyes and direct our thoughts toward Him, we meet the most certain signs of His omnipotence.

There is truly nothing that more elequently proclaims His supreme love and mercy towards us than the inexplicable mystery of our Lord's Passion and Death on the Cross from which springs the never failing fountain to wash away the defilements of sin on our soul. It's in this Fountain we desire to be merged and purified when we ask, no beg, of GOd to forgive our sins (debts).

Isaias 27:9 taught "The iniquity of the house of Jacob shall be forgiven; and this is all the fruit that the sin thereof shall be taken away."

David said the same, "Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven."

Asking forgiveness of our sins is so important for our happiness in this life and to the attainment of salvation in the next life.

So when you think about it asking for or petitioning forgiveness of our sins is really a manner of praying...and this can be done by anyone, anywhere, at any place. Since we are asking God for a spiritual good, that is pardon of our sins, we must be in the proper disposition, so to speak.

We start our prayer of petition by acknowledging our sins which have blackened our soul, next be truly sorry for having committed them with the firm purpose of sinning no more. We petition God as our Father, not as a Judge, imploring Him to deal with us not according to His Justice, but according to His mercy.

We must be firmly convinced that God will grant us pardon. This confidence is necessary to sinners lest we would be led to despair that we could not obtain pardon like that of Cain and Judas who both looked upon God as an avenger and punisher forgetting that He is also mild and merciful.

So, here our Lord Himself taught us how great is the goodness and bounty of God towards mankind. For if God were not ready and prepared to pardon penitents of their sins, never would He have prescribed this prayer.

Through the ardent love of prayer, asking forgiveness of sins is good anytime. David said, "My sin is always before me; and everynight I will wash my bed I will water my couch with my tears." Psalm 1:5. The publican standing off with shame and grief with his eyes fixed to the ground, hit his breast crying, "O God, be merciful to me a sinner. St. Luke 18:3. And again in St.Luke, such was the woman, "a sinner", who standing behind Christ the Lord, washed His feet, wiped them with her hair, and kissed them 7:38.

Then there is the example of St.Peter, prince of the 12 Apostles, who "going forth wept bitterly" St.Matt. 26:75.